Post by The Dark One on Apr 8, 2020 22:08:18 GMT
07/07/2020
Lead by: The Creator and The Lace of Ages
pre-party notes: During the Last Battle in Thakan'dar the Samma N'Sei took by surprise the forces of the Light, consequently the Aiel Wise Ones took particular responsibility to fight them as a 'toh towards their allies.
Brandon said that once they learned the taint was cleansed, no Aiel men were/would be sent to the Blight.
WEEK 14 QUESTION
In the middle books in the series, we see that a roofmistress is typically the clan chief's wife. What happens if the clan chief is not married? Or what status does the roofmistress have if she runs a hold that is not the home of a clan chief?
ROBERT JORDAN
The roofmistress of a clan hold is always the wife of the clan chief, if he is married. If he is unmarried, his eldest first-sister would be the roofmistress until he did marry. If he didn't have a first-sister, then it would be his eldest living sister-mother, his mother's sister, who is considered more closely related to him than his father's sisters are. After that, there is a whole set of complexities involving blood-relationships that make sure that the woman is who is both the eldest and the most closely related to the clan chief has the position. This is a situation that seldom develops, however, and seldom lasts long if it does. The Wise Ones believe that a clan chief should be married, as a stabilizing influence if for no other reason, and they will arrange the matter one way or another if he himself does not. And since Aiel women in general also believe that a clan chief should be married, in most cases the woman who is temporarily roofmistress will work toward the same end as well.
The roofmistress of a hold that is not the home of a clan chief or a sept chief has the same status as the roofmistress of a clan chief or sept chief, at least inside her own hold. She would gain that position by being the wife of the man who leads the algai'd'siswai of that hold, though her authority in some ways outstrips his inside the hold, just as the authority of clan or sept roofmistresses in some ways outstrips that of the clan or sept chiefs inside the hold. There are certain decisions that are hers alone and in which he has no say at all.
There is a hierarchy of roofmistresses within a clan, with the roofmistress of the clan chief at the top, roofmistress of sept chiefs next, and other roofmistresses ranked below according to the size of the holds of which they are roofmistresses. Roofmistresses of other clans are considered to have comparable status in any inter-clan dealings, though without the authority in any clan save their own.
video: youtu.be/2D63TXi0yPQ
Summary:
Things have changed pretty significantly for the Aiel. They've gone from isolationists to people that have to move and interact with the entirety of the Dragon Compact. How has that changed their culture? Are they friendlier? More accepted by the Westlands as a whole? How has ji'e'toh adapted to changing circumstances? Do they still skirmish with one another regularly, or have they become more unified?
NatGeo
I think the first few years after the Last Battle might have been a bit rough due to no formal system developed to keep those things in check
NatGeo
I think the first few years after the Last Battle might have been a bit rough due to no formal system developed to keep those things in check
Terrac’s/Menethil
Ji'e'toh is not a monolithic set of rules to be followed blindly. Sometimes what needs to be done would be against ji'e'toh. Committing such an act does not go against ji'e'toh so long as toh incurred is met afterward. I think what incurs toh a cultural expectation though.
Kay
So, for practical purposes, it's best to leave it vague and let people figure it out in their posts
So, for practical purposes, it's best to leave it vague and let people figure it out in their posts
NatGeo
yeah
yeah
We agreed that the things their culture deems shameful wouldn't have changed too much
Kay
Rhuidean is sort of the major catalyst for change in terms of life in the Wastes. Plentiful resources that can easily provide for all the clans might drastically change life as they know it.
Rhuidean is sort of the major catalyst for change in terms of life in the Wastes. Plentiful resources that can easily provide for all the clans might drastically change life as they know it.
Is it possible the clans as whole have diminished in significance? With the societies working between clans pretty much ever since Rand stopped by, a possibly unified settlement in Rhuidean, and unity of purpose, might societies e the primary dividing line in Aiel society?
We've got ~100 years to play with, so I don't think there's time for them to have withered entirely, but things have a way of changing quickly.
Terrac’s/Menethil
Well if we're looking for historical precedent I would point to a Mongol type system perhaps? Where the clans existed (sorta) but the divides were intentionally eroded by the leadership.
Well if we're looking for historical precedent I would point to a Mongol type system perhaps? Where the clans existed (sorta) but the divides were intentionally eroded by the leadership.
Eve
How are they handling the knowledge that they come from “The Lost Ones” (Tuathua’an) and they were actually the ones who lost the way, etc. When Rand first told them, it ripped apart a solid chunk of the clans, how have the adapted to that mind fuck since?
Anger? Sadness? Acceptance? Where are we in the stages of grief?
Anger? Sadness? Acceptance? Where are we in the stages of grief?
Kay
My opinion leans towards: "They got over it by finding a purpose post last battle, plus fulfilling their role there", basically.
Terrac’s/Menethil
You might have some young Aiel who would feel the pull to join the Tuat'han, but with their people having purpose I could see most accepting it happened but that they are new people now.
You might have some young Aiel who would feel the pull to join the Tuat'han, but with their people having purpose I could see most accepting it happened but that they are new people now.
Peacekeeping duties
Shai’tan
Would different clans be in charge of different wetland areas?
Would different clans be in charge of different wetland areas?
Terrac’s/Menethil
Likely not
I imagine it would sort down with responsibilities being divided among the warrior societies. Since those bonds are supposed to be as strong as kin, it would also keep feuds from forming among the Aiel
Likely not
I imagine it would sort down with responsibilities being divided among the warrior societies. Since those bonds are supposed to be as strong as kin, it would also keep feuds from forming among the Aiel
Tseia
I could see each warrior society being assigned to a nation they manage.
I could see each warrior society being assigned to a nation they manage.
NatGeo
but different warrior societies would by extension manage things differently. Would that not be cause for some nations to claim different standards are being applied?
but different warrior societies would by extension manage things differently. Would that not be cause for some nations to claim different standards are being applied?
(Good point - the societies are specialized see wiki: wot.fandom.com/wiki/Aiel_warrior_societies)
Shai’tan
What exactly is their role as peacekeepers? I was thinking they just kept countries from warring each other, but I don't really understand how that translates to their day to day
What exactly is their role as peacekeepers? I was thinking they just kept countries from warring each other, but I don't really understand how that translates to their day to day
Kay
Well, my idea of peacekeepers is largely that, but also preventative work (i.e. making sure no one is rounding up troops, researching black powder, gathering channelers, that sort of thing) I'm not sure how much active policing they'd be doing? Ideally, the nations wouldn't know they were there unless stuff was really hitting the fan.
Well, my idea of peacekeepers is largely that, but also preventative work (i.e. making sure no one is rounding up troops, researching black powder, gathering channelers, that sort of thing) I'm not sure how much active policing they'd be doing? Ideally, the nations wouldn't know they were there unless stuff was really hitting the fan.
Terrac’s/Menethil
As for the HOW the Aiel handle things, they are a very matriarchal society so I would guess a council of Wise Ones would handle the assignments of things from the peace with battle leaders and chiefs being assigned as needed
NatGeo
oooh maybe the Wise Ones are the ones who decides who needs to be helped/put in line, and the Chiefs are the ones responsible for how?
Terrac’s/Menethil
I could see something like that being laid out
Kay
I could definitely see Wise Ones wanting to call the shots on where they need to intervene, particularly given Aviendha and her role in adding them as peacekeepers in the first place
Terrac’s/Menethil
The Chiefs would of course answer to their Wise One's as well, so as not to brew a Couladin situation.
Kay
Plus, that would allow them to (somewhat) retain that isolationist bent, by making sure they only get involved when the Dragon's Peace/honor compels them. Also, if clans have diminished in importance, it would make sense that the chiefs aren't quite as powerful anymore.
As for the HOW the Aiel handle things, they are a very matriarchal society so I would guess a council of Wise Ones would handle the assignments of things from the peace with battle leaders and chiefs being assigned as needed
NatGeo
oooh maybe the Wise Ones are the ones who decides who needs to be helped/put in line, and the Chiefs are the ones responsible for how?
Terrac’s/Menethil
I could see something like that being laid out
Kay
I could definitely see Wise Ones wanting to call the shots on where they need to intervene, particularly given Aviendha and her role in adding them as peacekeepers in the first place
Terrac’s/Menethil
The Chiefs would of course answer to their Wise One's as well, so as not to brew a Couladin situation.
Kay
Plus, that would allow them to (somewhat) retain that isolationist bent, by making sure they only get involved when the Dragon's Peace/honor compels them. Also, if clans have diminished in importance, it would make sense that the chiefs aren't quite as powerful anymore.
The Dragon Blooded
Terrac’s/Menethil
The Dragon Blooded could probably just be another warrior society in function I mean...The society is Matriarchal, just because men can channel doesn't mean they'll start letting men who can hold power kind of thing
The Dragon Blooded could probably just be another warrior society in function I mean...The society is Matriarchal, just because men can channel doesn't mean they'll start letting men who can hold power kind of thing
Kay
For generations they sent their men to die, and found out in the Last Battle that they'd actually armed the Dark One by doing so. That's going to cause some psychic backlash. The revelation might alter how they treat male channelers at a pretty fundamental level. They might end up being more than just another warrior society, though that as a base does make sense
Tseia
With Rand being "one of them" and being instrumental in creating the Black Tower, I'd say the chances of them sending their male channelers there is solid.
Maybe even the BT, at least early on in recognition of the role the Aiel played, would consider sending Asha'man to the Aiel to train the Dragon Blooded, rather than requiring them to go to the BT.
The cultural ramifications would be, uh, way more complex.
With Rand being "one of them" and being instrumental in creating the Black Tower, I'd say the chances of them sending their male channelers there is solid.
Maybe even the BT, at least early on in recognition of the role the Aiel played, would consider sending Asha'man to the Aiel to train the Dragon Blooded, rather than requiring them to go to the BT.
The cultural ramifications would be, uh, way more complex.
Once there are trained Dragon Blooded, their training might even move to be "in house" the way the Wise Ones are...though I imagine they'd keep ties to the BT, both for "regulatory" purposes and for alliance's sakes.
Kay
Oh, yeah. I honestly don't think they'd continue BT as their baseline training after the first generation or so.
Oh, yeah. I honestly don't think they'd continue BT as their baseline training after the first generation or so.
Terrac’s/Menethil
Well, the alliance might be broken since Rahlin's madness
Well, the alliance might be broken since Rahlin's madness
Kay
Rahlin's Madness is another interesting point...that's pretty much the single most egregious breach of the Dragon's Peace since its formation. That's going to piss the Aiel off, especially because they weren't able to stop it solo
Rahlin's Madness is another interesting point...that's pretty much the single most egregious breach of the Dragon's Peace since its formation. That's going to piss the Aiel off, especially because they weren't able to stop it solo
Tseia
Over time, a lot of time, the Dragon Blooded might even develop a role in Aiel society similar to the Wise Ones. Perhaps they even "take over" the prominence previously held by the chiefs? Obviously there are cultural implications here, but...
I feel like the power balance between chiefs and Wise Ones is too ingrained for it to go away completely, even if clans become less defined.
Terrac’s/Menethil
I mean, chiefs were basically war leaders so I could see some Dragonblooded taking that role
Kay
I'm curious what combat channeling ji'e'toh looks like now
NatGeo
probably just a focus on Shielding rather than fireballs all over the place
Terrac’s/Menethil
That being said, as a role I kind of imagine them like... well like the benders from Avatar honestly(edited) Like, they could serve as shock troops style thing for the Aiel, or as a counter to the Seanchan's Da'mane
NatGeo
oooo interesting
Kay
I do love the idea that circumstances dictate that Dragon Blooded channelers are focused at beating down other channelers
Over time, a lot of time, the Dragon Blooded might even develop a role in Aiel society similar to the Wise Ones. Perhaps they even "take over" the prominence previously held by the chiefs? Obviously there are cultural implications here, but...
I feel like the power balance between chiefs and Wise Ones is too ingrained for it to go away completely, even if clans become less defined.
Terrac’s/Menethil
I mean, chiefs were basically war leaders so I could see some Dragonblooded taking that role
Kay
I'm curious what combat channeling ji'e'toh looks like now
NatGeo
probably just a focus on Shielding rather than fireballs all over the place
Terrac’s/Menethil
That being said, as a role I kind of imagine them like... well like the benders from Avatar honestly(edited) Like, they could serve as shock troops style thing for the Aiel, or as a counter to the Seanchan's Da'mane
NatGeo
oooo interesting
Kay
I do love the idea that circumstances dictate that Dragon Blooded channelers are focused at beating down other channelers
Tai / Seanchan Relations
Kay
Good time to mention my Tai'Seanchan question I think, because they'd be combat ready around the same time as the Seanchan War
Under Aviendha's watch, the Tai'Seanchan are, more than any others, dangerous. Her vision of the future has been averted, but how do the two groups get along now that they have to share an uneasy peace? Damane (and dacovale in general) seem so anathema to me from the Aiel perspective that I'm not sure they'd even get very civil outside of necessity.
Under Aviendha's watch, the Tai'Seanchan are, more than any others, dangerous. Her vision of the future has been averted, but how do the two groups get along now that they have to share an uneasy peace? Damane (and dacovale in general) seem so anathema to me from the Aiel perspective that I'm not sure they'd even get very civil outside of necessity.
NatGeo
Maybe the Aiel negotiated a truce with the Tai'Seanchan that included the return of former Wise One damane
Maybe the Aiel negotiated a truce with the Tai'Seanchan that included the return of former Wise One damane
Eve
All Wise Ones who had been collared would have been released under the whole “not against their will” thing back in the day when Tuon admitted she could learn and made some reforms
Kay
it probably didn't include all Wise Ones, considering how effective they were at breaking people
In any case, I think that's a pretty good way to sum up their relations: civil by necessity. And then the Seanchan Empire are the ones they can kill with impunity
In any case, I think that's a pretty good way to sum up their relations: civil by necessity. And then the Seanchan Empire are the ones they can kill with impunity
The Shaido
Kay
The Shaido could be a fascinating addition to our stable of antagonistic factions, if handled well. But really, the first question is if we want to? They were a major source of arc fatigue in the series; knowing that, do we still try and bring them into our world?
Assuming we do: they would likely be a thorn in the side of nations bordering the Wastes, but likely not much of a concern outside of that; they seemed pretty intent on isolating themselves (but that could prove interesting with Shadow prodding, or possibly even Sharan conflicts waaaay down the line.)
Assuming we do: they would likely be a thorn in the side of nations bordering the Wastes, but likely not much of a concern outside of that; they seemed pretty intent on isolating themselves (but that could prove interesting with Shadow prodding, or possibly even Sharan conflicts waaaay down the line.)
Shai’tan
I was sick of them, but would like to see them as a baddie group anyway because they are comfortable and maybe we could make them cool again
I was sick of them, but would like to see them as a baddie group anyway because they are comfortable and maybe we could make them cool again
NatGeo
I'd say they probably went full isolation with the occasional raid
but that would open them up to less savoury influences away from the eyes of the mainlanders
I'd say they probably went full isolation with the occasional raid
but that would open them up to less savoury influences away from the eyes of the mainlanders
Kay
That's largely where I'm at Nat and Jair
I don't really see them being folded back into the rest of the Aiel; they seemed too far gone for that
That's largely where I'm at Nat and Jair
I don't really see them being folded back into the rest of the Aiel; they seemed too far gone for that
Eve
Isolation makes them ripe for Shadow or even Sharan influence for sure
Isolation makes them ripe for Shadow or even Sharan influence for sure
Alianora
Where are the Aiel living? I feel like the Shaido might go back to the Threefold land if the rest of them aren't.
Where are the Aiel living? I feel like the Shaido might go back to the Threefold land if the rest of them aren't.
Eve
I think we said the majority are still living in the Waste, because stubborn if nothing else, I like pushing the remaining Shaido towards the outskirts/nearer Shara
I think we said the majority are still living in the Waste, because stubborn if nothing else, I like pushing the remaining Shaido towards the outskirts/nearer Shara
Shai’tan
Wouldn't the regular Aiel live in the lands they peacekeep a bit at least?
Wouldn't the regular Aiel live in the lands they peacekeep a bit at least?
Kay
I'd imagine so, Jair. And I'd imagine younger generations might be more inclined to do so. Moral panic among the Wise Ones, anyone?
the Meradin
Terrac’s/Menethil
So what about the Meradin then?
So what about the Meradin then?
Kay
I'd wonder if they didn't just die out, though?
Though maybe there are some "true Aiel" living in the more desolate stretches of the Waste
I like the idea of these guys being a small group in the waste; it would give people the option to play someone closer to their original incarnations. So we have bad guy Aiel (Shaido), vanilla book Aiel (Meradin), and new Dragon compact Aiel (some new version of Jen?)
Though maybe there are some "true Aiel" living in the more desolate stretches of the Waste
I like the idea of these guys being a small group in the waste; it would give people the option to play someone closer to their original incarnations. So we have bad guy Aiel (Shaido), vanilla book Aiel (Meradin), and new Dragon compact Aiel (some new version of Jen?)
Eve
So, we have Aiel moving out of the Waste and just the Mera’din staying and being old school? Or a mix of both?
So, we have Aiel moving out of the Waste and just the Mera’din staying and being old school? Or a mix of both?
Shai’tan
I think a lot would stay in Rhuidean, but some would move to Westlands?
I think a lot would stay in Rhuidean, but some would move to Westlands?
Kay
They’d all have some presence in the Waste, IMO. Aiel in and around Rhuidean and other significant sites (and yes, some areas of the westlands. Maybe a permanent settlement in Merrilor? Since we have Merrilor as the permanent Compact meeting ground), Shaido further out toward Shara, and Mera’din as something of a buffer
They’d all have some presence in the Waste, IMO. Aiel in and around Rhuidean and other significant sites (and yes, some areas of the westlands. Maybe a permanent settlement in Merrilor? Since we have Merrilor as the permanent Compact meeting ground), Shaido further out toward Shara, and Mera’din as something of a buffer
Shai’tan
Yeah, I could see Merrilor, that land was unclaimed before too
Yeah, I could see Merrilor, that land was unclaimed before too
Tseia
I wonder if, even if only at first, that the core society would establish in Rhuidan while the warriors dispersed through the wetlands to fulfill their new role.
I wonder if, even if only at first, that the core society would establish in Rhuidan while the warriors dispersed through the wetlands to fulfill their new role.
Graendal
Kay
Graendal herself, bound to Aviendha, with a whole lot of Age of Legends and Darkfriend lore bouncing around in her skull. We've discussed, briefly, (hopefully publicly?) the fortress at Shayol Ghul and the knowledge/weapons contained within. If anyone could have gotten there first, it might well have been Aviendha and the Aiel. What are the consequences thereof?
Graendal herself, bound to Aviendha, with a whole lot of Age of Legends and Darkfriend lore bouncing around in her skull. We've discussed, briefly, (hopefully publicly?) the fortress at Shayol Ghul and the knowledge/weapons contained within. If anyone could have gotten there first, it might well have been Aviendha and the Aiel. What are the consequences thereof?
Shai’tan
Moggy did manage to grab a few things here and there before it was found
Kay
Yes. We need plausible deniability for macguffins and lore loopholes to exploit just in case, so no razing before it can be properly looted
Terrac’s/Menethil
So maybe cataloging and then going missing?
Kay
Yeah, they'd have until Moggy got free at which point she'd be raiding it
Moggy did manage to grab a few things here and there before it was found
Kay
Yes. We need plausible deniability for macguffins and lore loopholes to exploit just in case, so no razing before it can be properly looted
Terrac’s/Menethil
So maybe cataloging and then going missing?
Kay
Yeah, they'd have until Moggy got free at which point she'd be raiding it
(2 FA- so I think Moggy would have found it before the Blight had receded enough for them to find it?)
NatGeo
I would see Graendal's contributions also in the way of OP capabilities
I would see Graendal's contributions also in the way of OP capabilities
Kay
I definitely see Hessalam expanding Aviendha's knowledge of saidar, and probably the Wise Ones as a whole
Shai’tan
If we kill her I agree - do it with Avi
Kay
Hessalam hereby bites the dust, so mote it be
If we kill her I agree - do it with Avi
Kay
Hessalam hereby bites the dust, so mote it be
